Talk:Gojoseon

Article move

There was a suggestion that Go-Joseon be renamed and moved to Gojoseon, Former Joseon or Old Joseon, but no debate.

Credibility of Gyuwon Sahwa

Article states:

Gyuwon Sahwa is a credible historical record written in 1675 which is based on earlier records that are now lost.

However, I believe that its credibility as a historical document is disputed. The current official history textbooks in use in South Korea do not consider it credible, and do not have this list of danguns (whereas all the other kings/emperors/etc. are listed). [I live in South Korea.] Furthermore, many historians consider the work to be disputed (see [1]).

To conform to the NPOV policy, I propose that this section be marked disputed.

It looks like while HDGG is widely considered a forgery (it was not written when it says it was written, even though the contents are based on some earlier "alternative history" texts), it's more complicated for GWSH. Apparently the "original" GWSH is in the Korean national history museum, and many people consider it authentic (although some think it too is a forgery). Just because the book is authentically old, doesn't mean the content is accurate, of course. The content was not intended by the author to be a mainstream scholarly history, but a collection of the more nationalistic legends and alternative histories. I think it'd be good to briefly explain this in the article.

A bit of a re-organization

I have reshaped part of the article a bit. I have moved the historical parts ("Kingdom".. and a very short paragraph whose title I forgot) to the newly named "Founding legend and historical foundation of Gojoseon", which seems to make more sense, as the legends have historical significance and is relevant to the somewhat obscure history of the old kingdom, and added my own content based on the reading of Lee Ki-Baik's "Hanguksa Sillon", among other things. I have not subtracted anything but slightly rewritten some sentences. They can probably be improved even more. The "iron culture" section could be expanded a lot more, I'm sure. A bibliography section should also be added...

Requested move 27 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – Hilst [talk] 12:59, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

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Gojoseon → Old Joseon – For WP consistency (e.g., Unified Silla, Later Baekje, Former Yan, Later Yan, Early Lý dynasty, Early Lê dynasty). According to WP:CRITERIA: "The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles." Unlike "Wiman" (Wiman Joseon) or "Gija" (Gija Joseon), "Go" is not a name. It means "old". It should be translated. "Old Joseon" is used by the National Institute of Korean History.[2] Bamnamu (talk) 07:49, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Regardless of what the National Institute of Korean History uses, Gojoseon appears to be the WP:COMMONNAME in English. It garners more results than "Old Joseon" in Google Books, Scholar, and Search, and from a cursory browse most of the article's sources use it. There is precedent for this kind of split in article naming when adapting from foreign names: we have green curry but pad thai isn't "Thai stir fry". ― novov (t c) 09:35, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Common name tends to outweigh both 'official' names and consistency with other articles. toobigtokale (talk) 06:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wiman Joson and it's fall

The topic is a bit confusing.

"In 109 BCE, Emperor Wu of Han invaded near the Liao River. A conflict would erupt in 109 BCE, when Wi Man's grandson King Ugeo (우거왕, Hanja: 右渠王) refused to let Jin's ambassadors through his territory in order to reach the Han dynasty. King Ugeo refused and had his son, Prince Wi Jang (長降) escort the ambassador back home. However, when they got close to Han's borders, the ambassador assassinated Wi Jang (長降) and claimed to Emperor Wu that he had defeated Joseon in battle. Emperor Wu, unaware of this deception, made him the military commander of the Commandery of Liaodong. The outraged King Ugeo made a raid on Liaodong and killed She He. Scholars also hypothesize that the initiation of war may also have been because the Han Dynasty was concerned that Gojoseon would ally with the Xiongnu against the Han.

In response, Emperor Wu commissioned a two-pronged attack, one by land and one by sea, against Gojoseon. The two forces attacking Gojoseon were unable to coordinate well with each other and suffered large losses. Eventually, the commands were merged, and Wanggeom fell in 108 BCE. Han took over the Gojoseon lands and established Four Commanderies of Han in the western part of former Gojoseon."

So, the ambassador FROM Jin escorted back to Jin and when they got close to Han's border... What? They escorted from where to where? How they could reach the Han border if they travelled to the opposite direction? Ugeo refused and HAD his son. (??) So he had a son. And? Maybe commissioned to, or charged to. And who was She He? Why Ugeo killed him/her? And which scholars hypothesised the motive behind the war? So, the war began, and the Han army suffered great losses and won and Wanggeom fell. Who? What? And again no sources.

So, all of these need to either delete or rewrite.

Szeitzp (talk) 10:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)